Point

[ldmcniel]

I reread my post from yesterday and I don't think I conveyed what the actual point was. For anyone who doesn't have ADHD, that article was spot on. I that it is the most accurate description of what a person with ADHD feels. I don't agree with medicating people just so they fit in with the "normal" society. It really shows that medication to supposedly treat Adderall never were needed. So, not only were the people with an ADHD diagnosis feed poison to try and fix something that really did not need to be fixed, a lot of other people were given it for "off label" use and therefore continue to take the this poison. I call Adderall the orange devil. You have a love hate relationship with it. It is like a really bad relationship that you really know is not healthy, but yet, you have an obsession with it that you think is love, but it's not. Sorry for going on again.

Wish the best for everyone,

Lisa

[Greg]

Sadly I am pretty familiar with adhd symptoms BECAUSE i had to convince many doctors i had it..and i wasnt really lying to my doctors because for many years i did believe i had ADHD...

but i have a question for you..

.When I think of someone who has ADD I think of someone who has high energy, creative, extroverted, trouble sitting still, is all over the place and kind of disorganized but probably has a system within their disorganization.none of that is considered bad in our society, Also TONS of people are like that and they don't have ADHD. But they can all fit into the definition of ADD. So.... What is the difference between ADHD and a person who has a certain kind of personality?

, I just sincerely don't 'get it' this diagnosis. ADHD doesn't make too much sense to me anymore.

Another thing about ADHD is that if a person thinks they have it, it boxes them into a set of certain characteristics. And maybe only a couple of them applied to them before but now all of the traits under the ADHD umbrella apply to them...which I find inauthentic.

What is everyone in the community's thoughts on this?

[ldmcniel]

Sadly I am pretty familiar with adhd symptoms BECAUSE i had to convince many doctors i had it..and i wasnt really lying to my doctors because for many years i did believe i had ADHD...

but i have a question for you..

.When I think of someone who has ADD I think of someone who has high energy, creative, extroverted, trouble sitting still, is all over the place and kind of disorganized but probably has a system within their disorganization.none of that is considered bad in our society, Also TONS of people are like that and they don't have ADHD. But they can all fit into the definition of ADD. So.... What is the difference between ADHD and a person who has a certain kind of personality?

, I just sincerely don't 'get it' this diagnosis. ADHD doesn't make too much sense to me anymore.

Another thing about ADHD is that if a person thinks they have it, it boxes them into a set of certain characteristics. And maybe only a couple of them applied to them before but now all of the traits under the ADHD umbrella apply to them...which I find inauthentic.

What is everyone in the community's thoughts on this?

Inrecovery, I have also been pondering this in my head also. I am to the point where I do not believe that the term ADHD should be applied anymore. The reason is because I do not believe that it is a DISORDER. Many people are unorganized, hyperfocused, unfocused, hyper.... the list goes on. The only common variable I see is that most of these people are very intelligent and have unique giftedness, but on the other hand, this diagnosis also has been given to children with learning disabilities and behavior problems, which under the actual definition of ADHD would not apply. That would be other so called disorders including oppositional defiante disorder. I have read that article over and over. I have come to the conclusion that anyone could qualify for any "disorder" at some point in their lives. So I have a new name for these "disorders". It is called being A HUMAN DISORDER. Society is fixing theses that are not broken and creating drugs that create problems that are worse. I know this contradicts posts that I have made previously. Now that I have been clean for awhile, I can think clearer.

[Krax]

Sadly I am pretty familiar with adhd symptoms BECAUSE i had to convince many doctors i had it..and i wasnt really lying to my doctors because for many years i did believe i had ADHD...

but i have a question for you..

.When I think of someone who has ADD I think of someone who has high energy, creative, extroverted, trouble sitting still, is all over the place and kind of disorganized but probably has a system within their disorganization.none of that is considered bad in our society, Also TONS of people are like that and they don't have ADHD. But they can all fit into the definition of ADD. So.... What is the difference between ADHD and a person who has a certain kind of personality?

, I just sincerely don't 'get it' this diagnosis. ADHD doesn't make too much sense to me anymore.

Another thing about ADHD is that if a person thinks they have it, it boxes them into a set of certain characteristics. And maybe only a couple of them applied to them before but now all of the traits under the ADHD umbrella apply to them...which I find inauthentic.

What is everyone in the community's thoughts on this?

Totally agree. I think when it comes down to it, though it's obvious I don't know how much society considers this in general, is that it's a man made diagnosis based on no physical scientific data whatsoever, but based on self-reporting. As has been disucssed # times on this forum, amphetamine was created before there was an illness to use it to cure, and somehow conveniently the medical establishment found one.

[ldmcniel]

I0

Totally agree. I think when it comes down to it, though it's obvious I don't know how much society considers this in general, is that it's a man made diagnosis based on no physical scientific data whatsoever, but based on self-reporting. As has been disucssed # times on this forum, amphetamine was created before there was an illness to use it to cure, and somehow conveniently the medical establishment found one.

I agree too. Adhd doesn't really exist as far as being a disorder. I still am not sure why I never felt euphoria or high on it. Maybe I was already happy enough. I don't know but really, I don't care. I'm done and that's all that matters. Yes I am hyper but everyone is different so to those who can't accept my high energy, being unorganized, and a mind that doesn't stop......maybe they are just jealous because they wish they had a mind like mine.

[quit-once]

When I was a kid, back in the 60's and 70's, they were known as "hyperactive" children, but I don't think it was considered a disorder that needed to be treated. It was something that you either grew out of or learned to live with. I believe the drug companies bastardized hyperactivity into a "disorder". The most severe cases were treated with ritalin in the 70's and 80's. It was unthinkable that children would be given something as addictive as amphetamine simply for being hyperactive.

Even now, the label says adderall is only for treating severe ADD but who follows the label anymore?

[ldmcniel]

When I was a kid, back in the 60's and 70's, they were known as "hyperactive" children, but I don't think it was considered a disorder that needed to be treated. It was something that you either grew out of or learned to live with. I believe the drug companies bastardized hyperactivity into a "disorder". The most severe cases were treated with ritalin in the 70's and 80's. It was unthinkable that children would be given something as addictive as amphetamine simply for being hyperactive.

Even now, the label says adderall is only for treating severe ADD but who follows the label anymore?

I agree. Now, if you have extra energy, you have a disorder. If you act too much like a kid, they shove a pill down your throat. They want everyone to learn the same way and act the same way. Hmmm, I wonder if they are trying to create an actual zombie. If they start giving people a pill to eat brains, I'm getting the hell out of the way

[Motivation_Follows_Action]

I do think ADHD is a thing. I remember reading studies of ADHD brains and the synapses connected in completely different ways than "normal" brains do. Or not as much activity in the prefrontal cortex or too much or something. I don't remember the specifics. And of course amphetamines work on these brains just the same as "normal" brains because they do the same thing for everyone.

Thorough testing for ADHD incluses fMRI scans, other brain behavior tests and costs about $5000 - $10,000. Why would a doctor prescirbe this test vs a script for adderall? Makes non sense to me.

[ldmcniel]

I do think ADHD is a thing. I remember reading studies of ADHD brains and the synapses connected in completely different ways than "normal" brains do. Or not as much activity in the prefrontal cortex or too much or something. I don't remember the specifics. And of course amphetamines work on these brains just the same as "normal" brains because they do the same thing for everyone.

Thorough testing for ADHD incluses fMRI scans, other brain behavior tests and costs about $5000 - $10,000. Why would a doctor prescirbe this test vs a script for adderall? Makes non sense to me.

Did you read the article I posted earlier? I found it interesting but not surprising. I believe that there are people whose brain does work differently than others, but I do NOT believe that it is a disorder. Please read the article, it is the most accurate description of "ADHD" that I have ever read.

[ldmcniel]

Also, I am not 100% sure Adderall did work on my brain the same way. I ate fine, did not feel euphoria or high, and I could sleep on it. It actually calmed me down, until I was taking 100mg+ a day. Then the anxiety set in. I was chasing the calmness, not the euphoria. I do agree that the crash is the same and it did cause me to have increased anxiety, and fatigue when I went off of it.

[lea]

I do think ADHD is a thing. I remember reading studies of ADHD brains and the synapses connected in completely different ways than "normal" brains do. Or not as much activity in the prefrontal cortex or too much or something.

I believe that ADHD/ ADD is a legitimate diagnosis and that amphetamines do, in fact, help -- for the non-addict. There have been numerous peer reviewed studies showing amphetamines to be helpful for ADD type issues with executive functions of the pre-frontal cortex. Unfortunately for us addicts, this is not an option but there are many other options. For those of us around the age of 50, ADD was unheard of when we were children and what did we do? We worked harder, sometimes with the help of teachers, tudors, remedial reading.... whatever.... or we just did BAD in school but proved our worth later in life. e.g. how many times have you heard you were so smart if only you would apply yourself????

Then there are the non stimulant meds like stratera or off-label meds like wellbutrin and cognitive strategies on overcoming procrastination. I swear I'm not trying to be a naysayer -- I've been off stimulants for almost 5 months now and although I have to work a hell of a lot harder, I feel like I'm getting it done. It sucks being an addict but it's in my genes so I have to consider other options. So although amphetamines work well for some, they are not an option for me at this time or probably ever...

[Cassie]

I believe that ADHD/ ADD is a legitimate diagnosis and that amphetamines do, in fact, help -- for the non-addict.

The problem is that anyone can become addicted to amphetamines after long term daily use, regardless of whether or not they have an addictive personality. Look at how easily people can get addicted to painkillers. You could have a legitimate injury with lingering pain, take painkillers for a couple years, and then try to stop taking them but oh, you can't because you're addicted. I really think adderall addiction can happen to anyone, that's why it's so scary.

[Motivation_Follows_Action]

Ld, I have often pondered your statement about adderall working differently for you than others. The reason I bring it up is that I too remember feeling calm and confident in the early days, not in a cocky type of way but like the 8 stages article says, I felt more empathy and sense of measured collected-ness, if that's a word.

I'm not saying our experiences were the same - I guess it all comes down to any person's own interaction with the drug and whether it does what it is "supposed" to do. To krax's point earlier, because amphetamines have been a drug looking for a disease for such a long time, it may have become a panacea for so many things.

I am afraid my perspective on the use of adderall for "containing" symptoms of ADHD just is going to stay in a state of confused distance. I don't know enough about either thing to even have an opinion.

[Greg]

This is an interesting thread because you have some people who think it is real and some people who dont. I know Mike had originally envisioned this site with a section in the forum to sound off on whether you thought ADHD was real or not. Not sure why he nixed it.

Anyway, i also felt calmed down and more confident when I first started taking it...

With something like diabetes, you test a persons insulin levels to see if they actually have diabetes. When a doctor tests for ADHD all u do is you answer a questionnaire or answer a series of questions...the diagnosis criteria is so weak...Basically it's a test to see if you fall into set of predefined behaviors...there are probably tons of people who BS the test to get prescription, and also tons of people who answer the questionnaire 'correctly' who probably think they now have something but really don't at all.

[Krax]

My psych sounded surprised when I told her ritalin calmed me down and that if I stopped taking it early enough in the day (hard to do) that I slept like a rock.

But then how I saw myself was much different than others probably did. Without it I feel now more cranky but also more agitated. Yet my wife sees me as the opposite, and says I am way way easier going and less tense then I was on amphetamine. I do notice I don't clench and grind my teeth as much, and my relationships are better, but it's weird how different we perceive ourselves.

[ldmcniel]

I have been doing a lot of researching on the topic of ADHD. (I also become obsessive with something, but the good thing is, I am able to find a lot of information in a short amount of time. ) It seems like more recent studies are showing that the "disorder" that is associated with ADHD is actually NOT a disorder with the person, it is a disorder in SOCIETY. Society has drilled it into our heads that in order to be considered smart and normal, you have to 1-read well, 2-sit still, follow rules. In truth, that happens not to be the case. I was watching a video today from an author who has ADHD and dyslexia. He could not read at 12 years old. His high school guidance counselor told him that he had a 50/50 chance of of graduating, and if he did, he would either be incarcerated or flipping burgers. He went on to an Ivy League College, graduated with a 4.0 and has written books. He explains the ADHD mind perfectly and how it is not a defect at all. Everyone does not learn the same way and we all have unique gifts. Getting A's and being a good reader does not make you smart. How you use your gift is what gives you the power to be successful. Sorry, I know this is an addiction website but I found it very interesting since I started the subject of ADHD. So, while stimulants calm some, and give others energy, the main point is that they should have NEVER been produced and distributed to children, adolescents and adults. This drug has only created many more problems.

[Krax]

I think dosing kids with amphetamines masks a lot of environmental problems that we aren't addressing properly on our society, or in some cases children who were born to drug users.

[Cat]

I agree with quit-once although this was my experience going to school in the 80s and 90s. Hyperactive kids were normal. They were the norm. I don't really think ADHD is a "thing" beyond simply being prone to getting distracted, a normal thing for kids and adults! It's not a disorder, or a brain chemistry thing. It's a personality trait.

I was a straight A student who followed rules my entire life, read a ton of books, had perfect handwriting, and got basically all As in college without adderall. And yet I still get mega distracted and am a perfectionist, and that's what drew me to adderall as a professional adult. My younger brother was the opposite, got Bs and Cs, had really bad handwriting, got in trouble, now he's a banker and makes way more money than me. Neither of us took adderall or got labeled as ADHD as kids and my parents never attributed shortcomings, poor grades, or bad behavior to any kind of "disorder."

I think ADHD is a slippery slope of giving kids a crutch to rely on when they fail. And that's to say nothing of the scary and dangerous trend of prescribing an addictive medication to young children.

EDIT: I also agree with ldmcniel that if there's any "disorder" it's with society forcing people to conform to a single type of personality that is ultra productive and focused, rather than encouraging unique, creative individuals to figure out where they thrive.

[Krax]

the trend has a lot to do with cultural and environmental variables and involve participants who act in ways that seem appropriate. For instance, teachers have kids in classes who have no impulse control and disrupt the teacher and other students, depriving them from their educational experience. The kid is probably like that because mom was a meth or alcohal abuser, or whatever, and/or the environment at home is toxic. So the teacher understandably agrees with the kid being medicated. Is it right for that kid? No. Does it benefit the rest? Yes. Because of educational reform laws teachers can't just kick kids out of school or put them in separate classrooms, their hands are tied.

So it isn't a simple issue of whether society should medicate kids or not.

That being said I think it's wrong, however, as a parent of one of the other kids maybe not completely wrong. The REAL problem is something else completely. Good luck fixing that!

[ldmcniel]

the trend has a lot to do with cultural and environmental variables and involve participants who act in ways that seem appropriate. For instance, teachers have kids in classes who have no impulse control and disrupt the teacher and other students, depriving them from their educational experience. The kid is probably like that because mom was a meth or alcohal abuser, or whatever, and/or the environment at home is toxic. So the teacher understandably agrees with the kid being medicated. Is it right for that kid? No. Does it benefit the rest? Yes. Because of educational reform laws teachers can't just kick kids out of school or put them in separate classrooms, their hands are tied.

So it isn't a simple issue of whether society should medicate kids or not.

That being said I think it's wrong, however, as a parent of one of the other kids maybe not completely wrong. The REAL problem is something else completely. Good luck fixing that!

The children with behavior problems and who defiantly ignore adults and other authority figures are actually ODD(Oppositional Defiant Disorder). I saw a comparison study that showed the difference. However, those children are being mislabeled as ADHD. Most doctors even seem to not know the difference. I think that is why ADHD has a bad stigma attached to it. So in reality, doctors aren't even sticking to the original "disorder" that they in the medical community defined themselves. This is very disturbing. A licensed Psychiatrist use to be the only medical doctor allowed to make the diagnosis as "ADHD". Now you don't even have to have an M.D. to prescribe powerful addicting medication. D.O, NP, PA's can prescribe with no problem. This to me is very disturbing and seems very unethical as a medical professional myself. Also, I have yet to have a M.D. admit that Adderall and other stimulants even have adverse effects. Really??? What the fuck are they teaching in medical school??? All of my symptoms that developed were related to Adderall and not one of the doctors that I worked for would admit that. The more research I do, the more I get pissed off at how blind and irresponsible medical professionals who are suppose to help us are hurting us. They even get a licensed to do this. Back on track about the kids in school, I say, let's bring the paddle back to the kids who are DELIBERATELY distracting the class, and let the ones who are creative and have other wonderful skills BESIDES reading thrive on their gifts.

[Motivation_Follows_Action]

Interesting and meandering thread. There are tons of assumptions being made though. Krax's statement around behavioral or problematic children is related to drug use at hone is a little way off.

We have to be careful that in our evangelism about the evils of adderall and how we think its terrible that is dispensed so freely, that we don't sound like the two grumpy old men on the muppets.

I'm glad you're doing your research though. It raises some really valuable discussion topics.