[Relapse...]

Hey Gonzo,

I think I can relate to that feeling... "once an addict always an addict". My father was and is an alcoholic, as was his father before him, and I have struggled with one addiction or another most of my adult life, its just some addictions are more socially acceptable and some have nicer byproducts (ie workaholism!). But it's still addiction, and you said it yourself, ruins your relationships, takes over your life, has negative downstream impacts on your ability to cope with life. Addiction is part of who I am as a person, I have to learn to accept that, let the gremlins have their say and then give them the day off and get on with it. Easier said than done (see other post I put on the board today!).

I've also been to a lot of therapists in my life and the best, most effective therapist I ever had reminded me that if you take something away, you have to replace it with something else.

What could replace adderall for you that might be less damaging to your mental and physical health? I'm not saying you have to immediately switch addictions, but it's worth being realistic.

That's a good point. It's like Adderall is just a manifestation of this "addiction" drive, and one with some very confusing cost/benefits (vs something like alcohol or opiates).

Exercise, perhaps?

[Relapse...]

I'm not sure what compels people to come to this site when they're taking adderall again, or write posts about quitting while on adderall, its selfish and self serving,

Sorry -- I wish I was in a better place to be less "self serving" but I'm an addict, depressed, and struggling with the psychology and dissonance of my addiction.

I didn't realize this was only a place for those that were doing "well" in their struggle.

I actually decided to post because I read "I'd say 90% of the Tell Your Story stories are folks who want to quit, post their story, then never come back cuz they keep using". That was me.

If people think that these types of posts are harmful to the community and are hurting others' efforts to stay clean.. I'll stay away.

Hey gonzo, why do you come to these boards? Not that you're not welcome or free to do so or whatever, but what is the compulsion to want to surround yourself with people who are all in various stages of recovering from adderall abuse? If you're convinced that you can easily live in that space between using freely with no regret or sense of consequences & not using at all and happy to be doing so (in a loose sense of happiness, or not), why hang out here? Is there a seed planted within you that says what you're doing isn't the best idea? I don't get it.

I'm NOT convinced of this, at ALL. What's so confusing? That I'm *struggling* with the concept of "is this good? is this bad?"?

I started my post with "I'm relapsing" and ended with "Blah. I think I need to see a therapist."

That it was pointed out to me that "hey, man, if you're still using sometimes, you haven't really quit?" gave me serious pause and something to contemplate.

The site is called QUITTING aderall, not I QUIT adderall.

I wish I could be an inspiration to you, man, but I'm just not there.

[Relapse...]

Christ, I feel like a therapist and I am certainly not one.

Your words definitely help, and are duly appreciated.

OK, back to question #1. Think outside of the drug box. Are there any habbits or other behaviors that you have permanantly absconded from? Have you ever ended a relationship with an intent of permanance?

(Sadly?) No, and no. Perhaps this is at the root of my problem(s).

Have people close to your ever died?

Yes. But that was out of my control; not a decision I had to make.

Just trying to get you do do some soul searching to get your mind in a quitting forever mentality, if that is possible at this point.

I see what you're saying. And I totally agree (and the facts unambiguously support) that I never really "quit" forever. Just got disgusted enough to stop using daily.

Do the bad things adderall makes you do to other people outweigh the feeling of "that was excellent, look at all I did"?

The bad things I have done? Yes. I think so. But I keep falling into the trap of, "but it's helped me do GOOD things for people too." and "I know other people on Adderall who seem very able to handle it".

[Hey Falcon, CONGRATULATIONS!!]

90 days is incredible. Congrats, man.

[Wellbutrin SR]

gonzo

Hey brother apparently you do not have depression so you have no Idea on what the fuck your talking about .You have no clue how it feels when you have no feeling and no hope and nothing gives you joy in life and you walk around in a slow motion mode. You are talking out of ignorants antidepressants help lots of people like myself with real clinical depression and also people who have experienced trauma in ther life like our brothers in the usa services coming home with post dramatic stress disorder or someone whom jest lost a loved like in connet- last week and people quitting drug and alcohol addiction .Take your head out of your () and be a little more opened mind because you are like a lot of folks out there that think you can jest snap out of your depression well I telling you bro it don’t work that way consider yourself a lucky you are not inflected with clinical depression. This subject hits close to home with me because I suffer from drug resistant depression all my adult life this means I start a new drug then it works somewhat for a bit then the drug stops working on me and I need to change to another drug .Gonzo you probubly have depreisson from post addearll abuse if you go on wellbutran it will most likly be short term so dont woory about getting hooked on it wellbutran is not addicting you can stop using it when ever you are redy to.

Your friend FALCON.

Gonzo I need to say that I am sorry. I was way to hard on you I tried to delete my post butt could not do so .You seem like a ok guy with good intentions I guess I was a little angry for you putting down antidepressant drugs please except my apology. FALCON

Hey, man, no worries. I said I was opposed to being on them, as in *myself*. Nothing against *others* using them, at all, what-so-ever! I would never be down on someone else for that kind of life choice.

[Wellbutrin SR]

I was looking into Wellbutrin, however I can't help but think... aren't we just trading one substance addiction in for another when we should get to the root of the problem which lies within us and the power to conquer it without meds? I know I know if only we were that strong, we wouldn't be here in the first place. But I think we tend to look for an easy fix, instant gratification, when we need to start with small changes and give ourselves time and be patient. I should practice what I preach, patience is NOT my virtue. I am most definitely depressed and have battled an eating disorder for a long time, which adderall has increased 10 fold by the way but I'm afraid if I get on anti depression meds then I will be hooked on those and I do not think I can handle going through another one of these stages in my life. Eventually I want to be able to control my thoughts and emotions and be content with the person that I am and have inner peace.

You definitely have a point. And complete independence from substances might be the best path for you. I definitely see virtue in that.

However, something likke Wellbutrin seems much more subtle / less abusable than something like Adderall.

"you will see changes in 2-6 weeks" sounds nothing like amphetamine whatsoever. Even if it's a NDRI. Though the personality changes might be similar... but simply much less pronounced? A big part of my amphetamine-hatred is the massive ups and downs... not sure if I'd see that on Wellbutrin. Maybe just a slightly elevated baseline? I could be wrong; I don't know; this is just speculation. I'd love to hear more reports of people taking it who are also familiar with amphetamines.

I've been opposed to being on "perscription medications" most of my life, yet fell in quickly with Adderall (first "recreationally", then habitually).

If you want to go full on 100% stimulant-esque substance free, that would invovle kicking things like coffee and nicotine too...

edit: I also see Wellbutrin is an effective and on-label perscribed smoking cecession aid. Which is really interesting, since amphetamine is such a chain-smoking-promoter for many people (myself included).

[Relapse...]

OK. Since it was not total abstinence I would downplay the significance of your "relapse". You never really gave it up for good, in your mind, anyway. What do you think it will take to change that mindset to where you are so repulsed by adderall and all it does to you that you would leave it behind forever?

I don't know. I've never given *anything* up for "good" before. I had a stint of significant opiate addiction (40-80mg of oxycodone/day) and I got so sick of the laziness, constipation and malaise that I quit... and though I'll still indulge occationally, I'm really not quite afraid of a full-blown relapse (and it hasn't happened; this was a number of years ago).

I think the difference here is... with opiates, I'm always left feeling "ugh, that was horrible". With adderall it's sometimes more like "ugh, that was excellent, look at all I did".

Were there any consequences or bad effects other than the addiction itself when you were using at 30-60 mg daily?

This might qualify as "the addiction itself", but -- the empty, horrible, hollow feeling when I'd stop for a few days, especially when reflecting upon the way that I treated other people.

Alienating friends with impunity, not forming "real" close connections with others, and huge problems with relationships/intimacy. Insomnia. Feeling anxious all the time. Obsessing over social minutae and imperfections. Missing obligations due to 1) crashing out, or 2) feeling so self-important as to not even care. Never preparing for the future. Passing up on a really good job prospect because I dominated the interview and felt like I could "do better".

[Relapse...]

Gonzo, how long was your break from using/abusing adderall? Are you back to your prior level of usage yet?

3-4 months. Not total abstinance, but far far less (occation-specific use only, e.g. sometimes before a late-night performance; probably 5 or 6 times total). Before 'quitting', it was 30-60mg/day every day.

I've been taking 10-20mg/day the past week or so.

[Just got back from a date..]

That's awesome, man. The last date I went on was going so wonderfully until I got addeled up and turned into a manic repulsive emotion-less jerk when she came home with me. I feel so awful about it, turning a full 180 on this girl, she must have been confused and uncomfortable as hell. It really opened my eyes to the whole Jekyl vs Hyde thing and triggered my desire to quit.

[Depression Hurts]

Hi Falcon,

Depression is very much like a friend. A warm, comfortable, familiar place of misery and despair.

As for persuing happiness -- it's kind of a misnomer. I'm not sure happiness is something than can truly be actively persued. And it is certainly not the same as "gratification" -- Adderall in particular tricks you into thinking it is.

I think the path to "happiness" invovles eliminating the things that make you suffer, even if it involves a loss of gratification. For one, the drugs.

best of luck, man. I'm there with you. Bad days and medicore days.

As for adderall-widthdrawal triggering depression: oh, believe me, there's a fucking link. I'm sorry your friends don't believe you on this one.

My best friend takes adderall every day (40mg), but his relationship with it seems totally different from mmine. He just takes it as perscribed. He has never binged. He exercises and eats a lot. He can be a little up-and-down but no more than your average individual and he never seems tweaked out or manic. But he fully admits it gives him a huge advantage in his daily life ("I've seen myself without it... you don't want to know"; "I don't think I could hold down this job without it").

It's hard to talk frankly with him about my own problems because he seems to feel guilty about the advantage it gives him. He used to just change the topic immediately whenever I mentioned amphetamines.

I don't feel any kind of spite towards him because of his amphetamine use. I really do love him, and love to see him happy, and he's got a job and a girlfriend and a real good life going for him (seemingly for the first time in his life), and while the drugs are an enabler, it's not "just the drugs".

At the same time, MY relationship with amphetamine is so so so different. The dissonance is really hard to deal with. And the people I know who are "like me" ("abusers"?), glorify it and have no intention to stop.

I'm so glad I found this forum.

[Relapse...]

I'm relapsing too. Right now. This week. After a few months of depression / weight gain / unemployment / lack of motivation to find a job, here I am, familiar territory, feeling "good", eating much less, staying up all night, re-organizing my apartment, and finally feeling properly nervous about my lack of employment.

Oh, and smoking again. And not smiling.

Blah. I think I need to see a therapist.

[Wellbutrin SR]

I'm interested to hear how this goes. I've been considering seeing a doctor and asking about Wellbutrin myself, both for my lingering amphetamine-widthdrawal issues (demotivation) and for my general depression.

Did you ask for it specifically or was it recommended to you?

[Heading to rehab in the am]

Congrats Edie! Best of luck, and keep us updated.

[Wierd Smells]

This is my take:

It sounds like hypervigilance (regarding smell) triggered by amphetamine psychosis, combined with the actual physical effects of amphetamine.

In other words -- Adderall probably did increase your body oder, but quite possibly nowhere *near* as much as you thought it did.

Sweat is somewhat similar to urine (in particular, it contains some amount of urea, though much less than in urine). Sweat can also contain ammonia, usually *very* small concentrations, although this can increase substantially with a low-carb / high-protein diet.

When amino acids (the building blocks of proteins) are broken down into glucose for energy, one common by-product is ammonia. Ammonia (fairly toxic) is usually converted into urea (less toxic) via the liver and expelled primarily through urine. But when there's an abundance of ammonia -- too much to turn into urea -- the body expels it via sweat.

Amphetamines dehydrate you *and* can make you sweat more. Dehydration causes more concentrated sweat and urine (less water) ==> more smell.

To reiterate, I'd postulate that Adderall indirectly caused you to smell more (via dehydration / possibly odd diet), and directly (via excess sweating), and additionally made you overfocused and obsessive about the smell, quite possibly to the point of blowing its severity way out of proportion.

[Wierd Smells]

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here regarding "a mildew smell"... can you elaborate?

[Adderall --> Alcohol? Escapism?]

Update:

Went back on Adderall a week ago, but only 10mg/day (was 30-60 before), and decided to kick the daily drinking before continuing Adderall abstinence.

Tapered drinking over the week, stepping down from 8-10 drinks a day to 0 as of two days ago (48 hours without any). Feeling good enough. Not much physical W/D which I'm very happy about. Going to give myself at least a few more days of alcohol abstinence before proceeding to step down or completely abstain from Adderall, this time with the very mindful intent of NOT turning to alcohol to deal with the withdrawal.

[Adderall --> Alcohol? Escapism?]

I seem to have this persistent issue with compulsively turning to alcohol and other forms of escapism to deal with the aftermath of amphetamine withdrawal...

I'm a never-rx'd, sporadic Adderall (ab)user, and have been for ~3 years. I tend to binge for a few days to a few weeks at a time, then stop abruptly (regardless of supply; my source is actually quite consistent; I can easily and affordably get 30+ 30mgs a month).

I've never held an affinity for alcohol before in my life, despite (because of?) being exposed to it early in life. I hate being out-of-control and `escapism' in general. I was an intelleculatually-focused and creation-driven individual from a *very* early age. This is what drove me to amphetamine use to begin with -- it made me "better" at the things I already enjoyed and valued (actually, it made me worse in the long-run, but better in the immediate).

But the throws of withdrawal have led me down the path of alcoholism.

I'm currently a few ~weeks without Adderall, after an intense week of use, and I feel "good" overall (very little desire to relapse, despite having 15 or so pills in my possession), yet I'm drinking like 4-10 drinks a day, every day, directly from being almost ~sober. This is not healthier than Adderall, although it certainly is *different*. I feel more like "myself" but I'm also actively cultivating a deadly addiction to GABA inhibition. I know, from past attempts, that even taking a small amount of Adderall will completely negate my desire for alcohol (that is -- until I come down -- but that's usually after the liquor stores close!)

I also find myself completely drawn to any form of escapism -- TV shows, movies, video games, reading, partying, what-have-you. Before I ever took Adderall this wasn't even much part of my personality.

Does anyone else struggle with this?

[Adderall --> Alcohol? Escapism?]

<drunkenly managed to double-post...go figure // please delete>

[Adderall has intensified pain.]

I was fortunate enough to have an angel of a girlfriend the first time I quit adderall (and consequently descended into severe alcohol and dissociative abuse). Needless to say, we broke up very shortly following, but she let me down *easy* and supported me as a friend for a long time following. I didn't even know what was going on at the time. I feel guilty for being such a burden but we're still good friends and have both since moved on to other relationships. Unfortunately, I (momentarily!) relapsed on adderall and screwed those up too. =/ Most recently, we're talking, like, 6+ months with very infrequent adderall, a few awesome dates sans-adderall, then an awesome evening totally fucked up once I was given some from a friend at the club (I don't blame him at all; my decision to ingest). I turned into a horny, delusional, sex-focused, self-centered bastard and that wasn't how I felt about this woman at all...

I've been adderall-free for weeks since, but I haven't even called her after that night because I just feel so guilty and weird for acting so completely out of character & I'm sure I freaked her out.

This might not be the most encouraging story, but it is honest! Something that I find very difficult to be on adderall.

I wish you the best of luck Kathleen.

[Boston]

Bumping this old thread. Boston-area (Somerville) recent ex-adderalic with lots to share.

[Empathy]

This is the worst part about Adderall for me. I strongly value empathy and have long considered my natural ability to *feel* other peoples feelings and innately respond in a helpful, win-win manner as a core part of my self-image.

Adderall turns everything into a "task"; I've found myself being uncharacteristically detached / amoral / emotionally manipulative. Relationships rapidly deteriorate into win-lose "contests" when things aren't going my way (and I'm naturally non-competetive!).

...and then you crash, hard, and all of a sudden your arrogant haughtiness flips into frightening neediness, and the poor person you're dealing with either 1) doesn't know what the fuck to think, 2) considers you a delusional narcissist, and/or 3) recognizes the tell-tale signs of amphetamine (ab)use.

I've ruined two potentially awesome romantic entanglements *very quickly* via the above cycle within the past year. Friends, co-workers, family might let you skirt by with some degree of incongruence. But don't expect much by the way of true intimacy.